Van Gogh

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Posts by Van Gogh

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  74

  True Christians neutral in War?

  by Van Gogh in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  today i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.

  in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.

  he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.

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  Van Gogh

  Hellrider:
  I know, refusing to serve can be idealistic; but then you’ve got to start somewhere…
  Ultimately you have to stand up for your own beliefs or conscience or risk getting caught up in a war that is at that time being perceived, or being sold by politicians, as just, yet with hindsight turns out to have been unjustified. Many veterans look back with regret on the atrocities they inadvertently got caught up in while fighting so called atheist, godless commies.
  There is a lot of controversy on whether fire-storming hundreds of thousands of Germans in one night in strategically unimportant German cities was the most effective way to go about it. Yet, the Nazi death camps and the few simple railroads leading up to them were left untouched until the very end. The most important ally in the war against Germany did the dirty work left unfinished by the Nazis when it (the USSR) ethnically cleansed huge territories of eastern-Europeans, and "relocated" many of them to the mass graves. Why wasn’t a just war initiated against it? What is a just war? Where does one draw the line? We applaud the conscientious objectors in the Third Reich for not getting caught up in an unjust war. But do you always know in advance where you will get caught up in?
  George W is a born-again Christian who started a “just” war. But just consider the position taken ultimately by an unbelieving participant for purely personal and conscientious motives: Pat Tillman? Where does this leave a Christian?
  VG
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  74

  True Christians neutral in War?

  by Van Gogh in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  today i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.

  in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.

  he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.

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  Van Gogh

  Honesty:
  Hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the trenches. If they had refused the orders of their irresponsible generals, they might have been executed anyway, but without adding to the bloodshed. It is a matter of individual Christian responsibility. Whether Christians kill other Christians or Muslims does not matter.
  Lovelylil:
  Anyone that would conscientiously take his/her individual responsibility to refuse war could have a favorable position with Christ (including Muslims), including the many individual JWs. What is your position on those that profess to be Christian AND kill in a war?
  Metatron:
  “Neutrality is nonsense”. Isn’t that a nihilistic point of view? This will ultimately excuse anyone. Everybody draws the line somewhere.
  Star Moore:
  Whatever you say. Who knows. But it is about taking ones individual responsibility in acting in the spirit of Christianity, for instance: “all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword”. Why not take the lead. According to Christianity Christ is a reality right now, and is in that view practised by partaking in him right now; the fruit of the spirit to be cultivated right now – not wait till the great trib.
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  74

  True Christians neutral in War?

  by Van Gogh in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  today i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.

  in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.

  he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.

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  Van Gogh

  Today I re-established contact with an older – true - friend who is still a JW. In the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd. He is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his Bible. A couple of years ago he was ousted as an elder for being too critical of the org. during a CO visit.
  I had been afraid our friendship was in danger when I told him I had left a couple of months ago.
  His position is somewhat ambiguous and hard to pin down. Convinced that it is the truth, but otherwise keeping an open mind as to the outcome of it all. To cut it short, he is loyal to God who he thinks works through his JW people. He is old school sincere. Though an independent thinker and well read, he does not know a lot about the theological arguments and facts available on for instance JWD. He does not seek out those kinds of facts or truths. But his faith is sincere, unshakable and from the gut. He has a great love for the international brotherhood and people in general. I find his faith in the good of people and a loving God inspiring.
  His main - gut - argument is from Isaiah 2:4:
  “And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
  He argues that the global brotherhood of JWs (not the organization as such) are the only ones that actually practice this simple, though effective trait of true Christianity in everyday life. To me as well this used to be the identifying mark of truth – despite the many cover-ups, falsehoods, fallacies, wrongs and injustices of the organization and its apologist henchmen.
  I still find it a compelling argument.
  What do you think?
  VG
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  40

  Does your personal vehicle reflect your personality?

  by Gregor in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is a clever volkswagen tv ad currently running in the u s that depicts various types of people driving cars that reflect their personality, like older males driving sleek sports cars to compensate for their "shortcomings" or a younger man driving an expensive european sedan as he pronounces with a bullhorn "because my father never hugged me!

  or another who says "because i make more money than you!

  have any of you ever gotten your self image tangled up with a vehicle?

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  Van Gogh

  1977 VW Golf 1600 automatic on LPG gas. Use it about twice a month. Usually ride my bicycle around town. Gets you around quicker.
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  9

  happy on the outside, crappy on the inside

  by lost_sheep in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm tired of putting on a happy face for all the drones.

  i'm sure everyone that's been a part of the borganization can relate to this.

  i had what would have been a great weekend were i still oblivious to the truth about the truth.

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  Van Gogh

  lost_sheep,
  We all have our own crosses to bear and all have to walk our very own – often lonely – walk. IMO, the truth of the matter is that very few friendships are to a large extent unconditional. When you walk away or spill the beans, you are sure to lose the kind of JW friends you mentioned. Likewise, though admittedly to a lesser degree, many non-JW friends might also turn away were you to BECOME a JW.
  I would caution you to tell them the “truth about the truth” and try to “convert” them. It doesn’t always work that way. My exit has been sudden and I spoke rashly, only to regret it. Most of my friends are like-minded, those still in or already out, but I lost one valuable friendship, shaking me up badly.
  Don’t risk shaking up your foundations until you are ready, to risk being left out in the cold. Try to understand them for a while longer and respect their progress on their path. You were there once too. Ultimately, we all are in some sort of a matrix.
  IMO, some great advice has been given to you just now:
  “At least, try to get some friends outside of organization, then you don't have to be "fake" all the time.”
  “The only way to get past it is to build up new friends outside the org. As they take up more of your time you will fade away without even knowing it, and eventually will not even miss it.”
  You obviously need to go at one time. This much is clear from your post. The ability to “see” can be heavy burden. But if you are not mentally strong enough to face the abyss, make a well-planned exit by building bridges.
  VG
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  40

  Another JW Suicide

  by orangefatcat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yes last thursday a young brother who was in the same hall as me but in the other cong.

  and he was 29, a newborn baby and a 2or 3 year old and young wife committed suicide.

  was killed here in our town of newmarket by a train.

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  Van Gogh

  Orangefatcat,
  Thank you for sharing your story.
  I find that one of the tragic paradoxes of this board is that in expressing our innermost feelings and thoughts in a such coherent way - without falling prey to the inhibitions and prejudices that come with seeing eye to eye in literal way – we can draw closer to each other in ways often never achieved in a lifetime living close together; lifetimes in which we fail to take advantage to literally look into the eyes of another and READ them without words. The paradox being that we can feel so close by telling, expressing, communicating, connecting profoundly, yet, without the ability to hold, hug, touch and associate in person.
  My personal paradox since leaving JW is having become aware of (being part of) something “bigger” – humanity - without judgment, yet becoming aware of your existential loneliness through the mystery as to how to connect with it. Ideally we should have both.
  Another poster PM-ed me yesterday with wisdom that struck me deeply:
  “I hope a world where people love each other comes about too, but it is obvious that all people have a degree of insanity (sin). We are driven by so many fears and anxieties and desires and they cause problems and wars and strife and misery for the human race. We don't seem to be able to work together as one as a species. It isn't a Muslim problem, or American problem, or a Bush problem. It's a human problem IMHO. Have you ever examined your own life and emotions and times where you reacted too strongly and hurt somebody? It seems that when we are put under stress we tend to over-react and become violent in our verbal expressions all the way to extreme physical violence. I see this tendency in myself and others.”
  My mum and dad – who at one time were exemplary Witnesses - killed themselves in 78/79. Many people showed up at their funerals without official involvement of course. It is only now that I can feel the true implications of true grief, tragedy and the implications of its unbroken chain.
  There is never just one single reason for such tragedies, but the WTS definitely is a catalyst. Like “sin”, whatever it signifies, this catalyst remains in place, unchanged as part of the “bigger” thing of humanity of which we as individuals are an integral part, for us to try to deal with, somehow accept, and perhaps forgive.
  VG
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  25

  Why this forum was important to me....my story (Loooong post!)

  by never too late to be myseld in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  because it made me think and face what i tried to push back.

  i was born in the truth.

  somehow i decided i would be a nice little jw and f*ck the rest.

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  Van Gogh

  Welcome never too late!
  Thanks for relating your story. Great writing btw. I know where you are coming from...and I once fled to England too.

  One thing that crossed my mind when reading your account is the necessity too somehow make peace with what you are and where you are coming from: your parents, your siblings, your spirituality and relationship with God and your country; confronting (fight) whatever you fear without fleeing (flight) somewhere else, dropping out of sight or just trashing your Bible. Living in two cultures can add ad a significant burden to shaky foundations already. Face yourself, settle and work from there: seek security in your surroundings and relationships.
  (BTW Spain to me equates to paradise; why leave such wonderful roots again? Many Brits would give an arm and a leg too settle down there. Just goes to show: many things are just in the mind.)
  Take care,
  VG
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  34

  Interesting thought on the importance of the name Jehovah.

  by PaNiCAtTaCk in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  first off, i did not write this.

  i found it on the net.

  i think this guy made an interesting point.

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  Van Gogh

  Check out this link:

  http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/hiding.html

  Fred Franz did not in all cases restore the Divine Name in the NWT based upon Hebrew translations the NT that contained it.

  VG
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  23

  I saw the Queen today!!

  by dido in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i went and saw the queen today, she was visiting a little town near me, so i thought, why shouldn`t i go and see her?

  after stopping myself from doing that sort of thing,(like going to see princess diana`s flower`s when she died), because we were advised not to when we were jw`s.

  it was a really happy day, people were waving flags, and the atmosphere was lovely.

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  Van Gogh

  Dido,
  I’m not a royalist either, but admittedly, QEll is an extraordinary professional, symbolizing a sense of nationhood and continuity (signified by other kinds of conventions and symbols for the USA), though, judging by one post, not for “her” Canada.
  I went to see “my” queen, another professional, during the 5th of May liberation day festivities. Allowing yourself to feel part of this “bigger” thing can be a an entirely new experience, to have the freedom now to do what you want, to see and do whatever you please, fitting in with harmless customs big or small that bind people together in a common bond of humanity, without always feeling pressured to derogatorily JUDGE others, can indeed feel GREAT!
  VG
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  17

  It's My Turn

  by Life Is Grand in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  another post from a newbie(who has been lurking around here for a couple of years now).. my story is nothing exciting really.

  i grew up pretty much from the age of 3 or 4 in the jw religion.

  my parents both became witnesses at that time, then after a couple of years, my mother "saw the light", and stopped going, but my father dragged my sister and i along with him for many years to come.

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  Van Gogh

  Welcome to the board LiG,
  
  "I don't know if the guilt or the doubt ever really truly goes away from deep down inside."
  
  Doubt, fears, guilt, beliefs... perverted survival mechanisms and confusing irrationalities etched into our systems like fear of spiders, like phobics we're forever checking under the bed before being able to sleep. Doing your homework will drive out the demons that gotta go and make peace with the ones that gonna stay.
  Happy birthday. I plan on celebrating mine too if stop hating them so much.
  VG